Geomob Podcast - 21. Free is great. Or is it?

Ed 00:01 Welcome to the geomob podcast, where we discuss innovation in any and all forms geared for fun or profits. Hi, Steven. Welcome back for another episode of the Geomob podcast. How you doing?

Steven 00:16 Hi, I'm doing well. Thank you. How are you doing in the lockdown times?

Ed 00:21 Well, here in span, locked down as actually loosened up quite a bit this week, or here in Barcelona, Barcelona was lagging a little behind the rest of the country. So now we can go out and walk around and do many more things. So in that regard has gotten a bit better, but obviously things are not, not even close to fully back to normal. Um, you know, my kids are still homeschooling and things like that, so, but we're getting there. What about you? What's the tuition on your side?

Steven 00:44 Well, London, London starting to come out of lockdown. It seems to be chaotic. We don't know whether our schools are opening or closing. I'm, you know, I'm a school governor at a primary school in Tottenham and, uh, we were going, then we postponed opening. I think we're now going to open the coming Monday, you know, but only probably a quarter of the children who should be coming back will come back. We're a long, long way from getting back to normal. And, uh, this isn't a political podcast, so I'm not going to make any comments about that government. Just say we're a long way from getting back to normal. It is what it is. And we've had lots of time to do online things. And we did an online gym of last night. Didn't we?

Ed 01:30 That's right. We had our third, uh, online geomob, which so first off, thank you to everyone who attended and of course, to the speakers for taking the time. Yeah. It's I have to admit, I'm struggling a bit with the online events in that you do get burned out with it a bit. So maybe we'll have to think about how we tweak the format going forward, but nevertheless, we had some very good talks. I particularly enjoyed the talk by Miguel from map idea, um, showing off his kind of geo location intelligence software. And I also liked the talk by John Craig about giving his perspective after kind of a 20 year career in a location based advertising. So may try to get both of them on the podcast in the coming weeks and months. So yeah. What was your perspective?

Steven 02:14 So did I enjoyed it last night? I did think I'm also suffering from zoom fatigue, which makes me shut it. When I think that I'm going to be spending a whole day first for G on zoom next week, know you can, you just tend to glaze over after a while. And I think perhaps we need to shorten the evenings a bit by maybe having only four speakers and being a bit stricter about the time they speak. Um, but that said there was some great talks last night. I really liked Miguel's map idea when I was back in the day when I was at mapping. So and running product management in Europe, this whole thing of integrating business intelligence and location was the Holy grail that we're laughter. And you know, you look at what they're doing now in a browser and how easy it was. And, uh, it was really impressive. I really liked it. And I also enjoy John Craig. You know, I joked about the Starbucks vouchers popping up on your phone for the last 10 or 15 years. And he finally, um, I think now the coffin shuts on that one. So he was a great speaker, amusing and opinionated, which is just what we want. So they'll both be good podcast interviews, I think

Ed 03:30 That's right. And hopefully we'll get the videos from all the talks up on the, on the website in the next few days. So,

Steven 03:36 Yup. That's my job.

Ed 03:39 Hint, hint. Um, so everything ready for FOSS4G UK next week or any last minute?

Steven 03:46 Is it heck is it heck no. Um, it's uh, I mean, you said that organizing the Jim mobs is, can be a bit of a struggle it's coming quite stressful. Yeah. I mean, not terrible, but you know, the thing's growing and growing, you know, we're now, I mean, when I looked this morning, we were up nearly 650 people registered to attend those. How many of them will? Yeah. I mean, it's getting big, you know, if we get a 50%, no show, right, this is still going to be a big gig, you know, and sort of corralling the speakers as you know, is always a problem. We need quite a lot of volunteers. In fact, I think you said you might,

Ed 04:29 Yes. I'm going to volunteer. I think the follow up on that, of course

Steven 04:33 You better get your email address into that volunteering form quickly. Look, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. And some stuff will go wrong. It's not the end of the world. We're certainly gonna stretch zooms capabilities, I think with six, 700 people in a keynote session. But yeah, I'll be pleased when it's over there.

Ed 04:54 Well, good luck. Good luck.

Steven 04:55 So what's happening with your business

Ed 04:58 With open cage? Well, we're actually working on a pretty important project, which is we're going to offer a different pricing model. So right now our pricing is subscription based and with different tiers, we have an extra small, small, medium, and large tiers that big based on the amount of usage that people have, and that works quite well. But we're going to enhance that by adding one off pricing. So we have, we often get approached by people who they don't have an ongoing need. They just have a onetime need. And so right now we kind of tell them, we tell them to sign up for a subscription and then just cancel the subscription when they're done. And that kind of works, but it's not perfect and it's going to clunky. And I think it scares off some people who are living in fear of having a subscription. And so we're trying to adopt that, but obviously anytime you touch the pricing, you know, you've got to get it just right. So, so that's what we're going to hopefully get that out by the end of the end of the month. I think.

Steven 05:51 So what will that be? Sort of like a, a price per thousand geocodes or,

Ed 05:57 Uh, well, this is the problem. This is part of the problem is like exactly how should it, how should it work? It, should it be strictly based on usage? But the problem with that is that, and people don't know exactly how much they're gonna need or should there be, you know, similarly to, with lots of scription, should there be a small, medium, large package or should it be time-based where you say, okay, you have a day or whatever, or week. So right now we're kind of still kind of deciding on that. But the fundamental idea is that people have a onetime purchase for a set amount of requests or, you know, how many API requests you make, but it's a fair question of, you know, should it be, should it be 10,000 requests? Should it be a hundred thousand requests? You know? So that's one thing I've found is no matter what price we said, of course people will want it slightly different. You know, you're always gonna get the guy who's like, Oh, it's perfect. Can you just change this one thing? And, um, but that's, it's a struggle. It's a struggle to get it just right. Yeah.

Steven 06:55 And the answer to that, can you just change one thing is redirect somebody else.

Ed 07:02 Yeah. Well, we already do do a bit of that. I mean, we get a lot of people who come through who they are. They're like, Oh, I just have one data set in. Usually this is non technical people or they're like, Oh, can you, can I just send you an Excel file? And the answer is no, because I value my sanity, but we actually have a partner where we, that we direct them to who are experts in kind of Excel spreadsheet processing, not just for geocoding, but all kinds of other processing. And so behind the scenes, they use our geocoder for the people who want geocoding and their spreadsheet is a site called clean spreadsheet. So I'll put the link in the show notes, but, but this is the struggle is that people have different needs and you know, we're great at meeting some of the, some of the people we can serve well and where we want them as customers and other people, you know, it could spend the rest of my life trying to fix their data. And that's not how I want to spend the rest of my life. So it's hard.

Steven 07:57 Yeah. It's on the islands, elephants, antelopes and rabbits or whatever the animals in his example.

Ed 08:03 Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, but you were actually recently wrote a post on your blog, which, um, no doubt. All of our listeners are our key and readers and talking about this whole issue of pricing and money and you know, what, what price, what value should a digital service have. So maybe you want to tell us a bit about your post and summarize it.

Steven 08:24 Okay. So posts was in titled three is great, but time is money. And that sort of sums up the whole thing. And it came from personal experiences. I mean, first of all, let me say, I'm naturally a thrifty person. I don't like wasting money. I don't like wasting anything, whether it's money, resources. When I was a kid, my grandfather used to people used to send parcels wrapped in Brown paper and tied up with string. When he received a parcel, he would spend, as long as it took, I'm tying the knots in the string so that he could roll the string up and then save the Brown paper so that he could reuse it. That's sort of that whole thrifty attitude that the previous generations had as sort of permeated me. So I'm not someone who is frivolous with money, but the consequence of that is sometimes you just get carried away with trying to save money.

Steven 09:19 And I'm in the blog post. I gave a couple of examples. There I'd be using key since I think 2006, 2007. I was one of it was, I was using Gmail when you had to get an invitation to use Gmail. If you remember back to that time, and it's always been free. And over the years, they gradually increased the amount of storage that you can get with your account, with your free accounts. And I think it went from two gig to five gig, and now it's 15 gig. It's been fantastic and I've had enormous use from it. But recently what with Google drive and everything, my storage has been up close to the 15 gig. And I kept getting these messages saying, you're getting close to the limit of your storage. It's time to think about upgrading rather than just upgrading. I tried everything I could think of.

Steven 10:16 I've spent hours searching on the internet to find ways to reduce the storage because a lot of it is just attachments to mail, taking up the storage, you know, and they're not attachments that I want. So if you could press a button and strip all the attachments up your email, you wouldn't need the extra storage, or that was the theory. And I've got round looking for ways to do this. Basically I've wasted a shit load of time and it's really stupid. And eventually a few months ago, I clicked on the up great button. I'm paying 16 pounds a year to get a hundred gigabytes of storage, which basically means I never going to fill my email in the rest of my life. 16 pound a year is nothing.

Ed 11:06 How many hours did you spend trying to avoid spending 16 pounds?

Steven 11:10 I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed. Let me just put it this way. That it definitely values my time at less than a pound an hour. Yeah, it's just, it's just stupid. And then I think a few months ago, we were talking on one of these chats about SSL certificates and I mentioned a great service called lexing crap, which is a free SSL service. The one downside with let's encrypt is that the certificates only last for three months. So you'll have to renew them every three months. And I worked at when the first time I did this, I think it took me about six hours to work out how to use their service and to create the SSL certificates and then load them onto my hosted web service web server and apply them and everything and getting it wrong. And finally, I got it right. And after a year or so, I got this down to, this was an hours work every three months and it was free.

Steven 12:14 And I went to do my regular quarterly update of my SSL certificates and a whole load of stuff has changed. And basically the front end that I used was no longer free. And I seriously getting into PHP and Apache and installing the software that I needed on my web server so that I could connect to the let's encrypt service and generate my SSL certificates, using all of that technology. Fortunately, I looked at this, got to about the second line of the instructions and realized that I didn't have a hope in hell of doing this and realized that I was going to have to pay for an SSL certificate.

Ed 13:02 And how much did that cost you?

Steven 13:04 I ended up buying SSL certificates for three sites and it costs me again, 15 pounds something. So the three sites, but they're 12 months certificates,

Ed 13:15 Right? So,

Steven 13:17 So I've turned a job that best was four hours a year into 15 pounds a year. And next year when they come up for renewal, assuming I've had no hassle with the service, they offer an option where you can buy a three year certificate and it's less than 15 per you know, it reduces because you're buying it for a longer period. But the whole lesson that I learned from all of this is that we waste a lot of time trying not to spend money. And, you know, certainly in my case, you know, that time is, is money. You know, it's worth, you know, I'd rather, I'd rather be working for clients who are paying me a hell of a lot more than a pound an hour, even 10 pound an hour. I'd rather be spending, I'd rather be spending time with my wife than fiddling around on stupid things like SSL certificates or ducking and diving to safe storage space in my Google account.

Ed 14:15 Yes.

Steven 14:16 That's the story of what prompted it. And then I remembered the conversation that you and I have had repeatedly about people gaming, the trial accounts that you offer with open cage,

Ed 14:31 Right? So we sit on the other side of that and we offer for the benefit of our other listeners who don't know, so anyone can come to our website and sign up for an API. It takes about one minute you drop in your email address. And, and then we give you an API key. And that API key, you can do 2,500 API requests per. And so obviously people come who have more of a need than that. And they, they, we see them trying to sign up for hundreds of accounts or multiple, you know, multiple accounts and all kinds of ways or, and get their friend to sign up and all kinds of things to avoid becoming a customer. And it's really disheartening, frankly, because as a result we have to, I mean, it's one thing when people, you know, the, what you describe of the, you know, they kind of in a very ad hoc way, I try to, you know, see Bob Smith at Gmail, Bob Smith at Hotmail.

Ed 15:24 Um, but within, we also see people try to do this on an industrial scale where they're obviously using software to create accounts. And it's so annoying because Hey, our prices are actually very reasonable, exactly like the examples that you described. And it's not only that, but we're very, in my opinion, and you tell me if I'm wrong, but I think we're very good members of kind of the open data community and the open source community. You know, we're, we're a corporate members of the industry Mt. Foundation. We're contributing back to the software. We're sponsoring events like geomob, you know, to help spread awareness. And we're doing all that and trying to provide a good, fair, valid service at a very reasonable price. And you know, if there are days you just get so frustrated when you spend the whole day trying to stop people from, in my opinion, stealing from us, I mean, literally trying to Rob from us, you get burned out on it.

Ed 16:16 I have to say so. Yeah. And I don't know what the solution is. I mean, it's an endless arms race. Now we've had to implement all kinds of things to detect the people who are doing this. And it even goes so far in the end. You know, we have, we, we send people kind of warnings and we say, look, not warning, but you know, first we ask them politely, we say, look, please don't sign up multiple times. The free trial is for testing, use it to test. And if you then like our service and you want to depend on it, fantastic, become a customer. And if not, then, you know, go work with someone else. I think that's reasonable. And the analogy I try to use in my, in my emails, I tell people, it's like, look, you know, imagine we're a restaurant, you've come into the restaurant. I might give you a free plate of appetizers. So you can see what a good cook I am. And if you like gum and you want to stay for dinner, fantastic, but you're going to have to pay for dinner. You're not going to just, cause I give you a free play to advertise. It doesn't mean I'm going to spend the rest of my life cooking your meals. So

Steven 17:15 That's a good analogy.

Ed 17:18 And uh, you know, actually we, it, this does some people it's funny then when you hear the kind of excuses that people make and you know, some people then do become customers and that's great and that's fine. And some people are like, Oh, sorry, I didn't realize like, how did you not realize when you're signed up 30 accounts? You know? Or,

Steven 17:38 I mean, shameful, it's absolutely shameful and you're right. I mean, basically they are trying to steal. And I think one of the issues that comes up is I can't afford it.

Ed 17:52 Yes. That is an issue. We do have people, particularly people where I have some sympathy is people from, uh, let's say developing countries where, you know, so for reference, our cheapest plan is $50, 50 us dollars. I think it's like 38 pounds. Alright. Forty-five Bureau. Okay. In that range, which is not nothing, but it's, you know, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's that much. And for that, you get quite a huge volume of geocoding and okay, so fine. If you're from a developing country, you know, maybe, maybe that's the value that $50 represents. There's more, but in the, in many kids, you know, if someone writes to me and says like, look, you know, I'm, I'm in country X and I, you know, I can't afford it. I'm happy to work out a deal with them and predict if they say, you know, I don't really need as much or whatever, but what's not okay. Is people just start stealing that? You know?

Steven 18:45 I mean, it's not uncommon, perhaps we're thinking about to have differential pricing for different markets. So whilst you might advertise the starter package at $50 a month, you might have the option. The people could request a discount voucher, you know, and you can give them a discount code, which reduces the price for people in the less developed countries or the student, or not for profits or all sorts of things. I mean, there's all that sort of edge case where people could negotiate with you justify some kind of a rebate or a discount, but it doesn't excuse people just trying to get everything for nothing. And so if you're signing up for 10 or more three accounts and running them in parallel, your consuming a significant amount of geocodes. I mean, I know I've said this before, but I would, I would just time limit the free account.

Ed 19:45 Oh, you mean, okay. I see what you mean. Like say the free account only works for a week or whatever the problem with that is then people say, Oh, I didn't have time. Or people say, you know, that just even gives people more of incentive to create a new, a free account. Right. So, so I mean, what we tell people, and again, you know, we're trying to be as general as possible. We say you can use the free trial as long as you need for testing, you know? Cause I don't, I don't know what schedule you're on or, or I don't, I'm not trying to rush you with their tests and you do whatever you need to do. But when the point comes that you're depending on the service and using it every single day, that's the point where you need to contribute to its maintenance by becoming a customer.

Steven 20:24 Absolutely.

Ed 20:25 So, so, you know,

Steven 20:27 Do live in a strange world, don't we? Because yeah, in the free and open source software world, you know, we have this conversation about free a lot of the time, you know, whether the licensing for the software, cause the licensing for the software says the software is free and that's fine. But you know, if you're providing a, then that service has a cost, you know, it has people, it has

Ed 20:52 Sure it has to be maintained security.

Steven 20:57 It has security. It has all of those sorts of things, you know, and that has to be paid for. And um, yeah, this expectation of free of free is sort of pervasive. You know,

Ed 21:11 I had a

Steven 21:12 Came up in my blog post. I said, if you want to free you, I mean, if you want a free geocoding service, don't go to open cage. All you need to do is to look on the internet and you'll find loads of people talking about the clever things they've done and you can test a few of those out. You can download all of the open street map data from open street map and you can set up a process to, um, frequent the update. It, um, you can maybe merge in some other free data sets that you find and D duplicate them and do all of that. Then you can get a hosting package from somebody and, you know, there's loads of hosting providers who will keep you a free starter package for a few months and you can get all of that set up there and Bob's your uncle, you've got a geocoding service free. And then when you are free package comes to an end, you can switch to another server and try and do it again. But all of that's going to cost an enormous amount of time and money in amount of time. And if you want to use open cage or any other paid for service, you'll probably save a massive amount of time and be able to do more productive things.

Ed 22:24 Yeah. I mean, there, there's no way you can. I mean, it's definitely much more cost effective to, to pair someone like us to do it for you with the exception of a few use cases. But yeah, go ahead.

Steven 22:36 Yeah. I'll give you a different example, which came up once we were preparing for fuss with Jay. So I, and one of the other organizers undertook to do a review of the various technologies that were available to, to host this online conference, you know, and we looked at, um, I think something called big button. We looked at gypsy, we looked at WebEx, we looked at zoom. We looked at, hop in. We looked at a couple of other conferencing, fast providers. And we looked at all of these and we tried to compare them. And eventually we came to the conclusion that we were going to run it on zoom, which I think I told you a couple of weeks, we're going to run the event on zoom. And I don't know what the final cost will be. Cause it's, the numbers are going back, going up.

Steven 23:35 We're going to be using slightly bigger zoom packages than we'd anticipated, but I'm pretty confident that the, the total bill is going to be under hundred dollars to run an event for 700 people across four streams, something like that. So it's not nothing, but it's pretty luck. And more importantly, we don't have any technical skills devoted to managing all of that infrastructure and ensuring we've got bandwidth and scalability. And if we go up to 900 or a thousand, it won't make any difference. We got a message from somebody basically say what, you're running it open source conference, and you're not using open source software for your, for your communications stuff. And I thought, no, we're not. Well, I was going to write back and sort of defend what we're doing, but before I did, I thought let's just see whether anybody's successfully run a big event home on one of the open source alternatives to zoom. And so I did a quick search and I came up with a thread on stack exchange or one of those things, the point that I'm coming to is people have been trying to run a single stream event on gypsy. And they eventually sort of sorted out what you needed to do to run a single stream event on jet C and you needed, first of all, you needed some very technical people. Second lady, you needed some pretty powerful hardware. You know, we're not talking about the Amazon basic.

Steven 25:19 We're talking about some pretty massive thing because you've got potentially thousands and thousands of threads. You need a colossal amount of bandwidth to spit this stuff out, and you probably need to also hook up a stream to YouTube too, or some equivalent Vimeo or one of those to give you some backup for the video, because it probably won't hold up for those also numbers. What we ended up realizing what I ended up realizing was that we made the right decision just because it worked for us, but actually the alternative of doing it yourself using free software, unless you're an expert, a does this all the time for a living in which case you're going to charge to do it is you're going to have an enormous technical load. You're going to have to rent bandwidth and all these sorts of things. And it will cost you probably 10 times as much as we paid or we'll pay to zoom for this event. And I think we get, we get, we get bogged down with whether a service is free or whether it's open source and actually paying for things and making your life easier. So you can focus on your day. Job is a hell of a lot better.

Ed 26:39 Yeah. I think there's a time and place for all things, you know, and you know of, it would be great if there were freely available open source software and you can just drop in and would do all these things, but someone has to build it and someone has to maintain it. And as you say, it needs bandwidth that needs servers. It doesn't matter what software you run, the someone has to pay for them. So yeah. You know, I, I do think it makes sense to try to find suppliers of where you agree with their policies and that you see that the, that supplier or that company is a, you know, a good member of the open source community and things like that, you know, if at all possible, but yeah, you have to always find the balance. I mean, many of the people I've done, I don't know. I it's of course on the one hand, it's good when people have, let's say views that push us. Because if, if everyone just said, well, why, you know, we need people who push us towards open source, but you gotta find the balance of reality that we live in. So I guess that's the constant tension, I guess.

Steven 27:39 I just wonder whether, you know, these people who are running multiple accounts on open cage to get round the first payment here, whether those people are contributing anything back to open source or open street map, or whether they are just determined to freeload on everybody.

Ed 28:04 No, well hard to know of course, but I, you know, obviously I suspect not, but, but frankly, that's also the case of some of, I had a call this week with a company, a large vehicle tracking company in Europe.

Ed 28:17 And they were like, Oh, we really like using open street map because of the, the terms and, and uh, also the cost. And we'd love to work with you. And, but sometimes it is not perfect. I said, well, of course, I mean, the world changes. So, but it would be great if, you know, and this is a company that has thousands of consumers using their service. It was like, well, maybe we could integrate a way whereby your consumers can report problems and someone in your team then could, you know, you could train someone in your team to get good at open street map and could help fix the problems and said, no, no, we just want you to do that for us. I was like, well, a RT. And is this a company that I asked him, how many engineers she has in his team?

Ed 28:56 Of course he has 20. And, uh, you know, and I was like, how many people do you think work on, nominate them? You know, how many active contributors do you think there are? Because it's far fewer than 20, I think at the time. And I was like, well, it doesn't really make sense. This is a guy in a, in a European country and it's like, it doesn't make it. You know, I, I'm not capable of fixing the things that we need, people who have the local perspective. And, and, you know, you could have someone in, I tried to explain to him, you could have someone in your team who becomes an expert on open street map and also engages with the local community and, you know, learns how the things worked there. And he just couldn't to make that leap of that. Like, he was like, no, no, we'll just be the customer. And I was like, well, that's not going to work. That's not going to work at all. You know, I mean, we'll go out, they have them as a customer, but then we're not going to be able to, you know, it's, it's a struggle, I think, for some people to, to make that leap. And I'm not sure what the answer is. So I guess it's just,

Steven 29:53 I think we've had that conversation in the open source community and in the open data community, but ultimately the, the commercial users of the products and services don't see them as being any different to the proprietary products that they used to spend 10 times as much money on. And in fact, what we need to encourage is a much more collaborative relationship between the customer and the producer, the customer needs to become part of the production process, not just a consumer role, the product.

Ed 30:36 Well, we do, we, we do have some customers where that, that does happen. And usually those are also customers who are coming to us because they know us from the open street map community or from things like geomob and things like that. But, but it's definitely not, not all yet. And I, I guess it was just an ongoing educational process to try to work with people and make that become the norm, and probably probably would help start kind of a ground up style process where you, you work on convincing the developers within the organization rather than a top down approach where you try to educate the CEO and he then dictates that's probably not going to work, but, you know, I guess it's, it's a long journey and we're probably on a, you know, day one of that journey in the grand scheme of things.

Steven 31:21 But going back to the problem of free, the added complexity for you, I think is that for open cage, to be a scalable and sustainable business, you have to automate as much of the whole sign up process and everything else as you can do. And you've pretty much got that, that they'll now you, you log in, you sign up, you get an API, you can then integrate that into whatever your application is and use the API key to get the, the geocodes. Um, the problem with all that automation means is that it means it makes it much more difficult to, um, to filter out the people who are trying to scam the system.

Ed 32:09 Well, we obviously have various parameters that we try to tweak there of like trying to make it, trying to detect those people and automatically suspend them and stuff like that. But, you know, no system is perfect. So I have no doubt. So a good example, that's very difficult. How do we differentiate between, you know, five engineers at a company who all register as a way to get around the limit versus five students sitting next to each other at a university where each one is kind of working on their own thing and just trying to learn and use our system. It's very hard, very, very difficult to those two apart where in one case, they're trying to try to cheat the system and one case. I mean, you can tell over time, of course, if someone, you know, if they continued to use it ongoing, but, but yeah, we waste a lot of time working on this. It's, it's a, it's a pain, it's a pain. And obviously any, any company that can afford to have five engineers can definitely afford our $50 package, you know? Yeah. So

Steven 33:04 Even if those are five engineers in a relatively low income country, I mean, even in those low income countries, you're paying those five engineers a thousand dollars a month.

Ed 33:16 Yeah, of course. Yeah. Or, yeah.

Steven 33:18 Yeah. It's not like those five engineers are not getting paid anything.

Ed 33:25 Exactly. So, anyway, I don't think we're going to resolve it today, Steven, so then I guess, otherwise

Steven 33:32 I don't think we're going to resolve it today, but it would be nice if there was a little, um, if there was a magic switch. Um, personally, I, I, you know, I think, um, it's really difficult. Um, and I don't think we can resolve it, but

Ed 33:47 Well, I invite any suggestions that our listeners have or any thoughts and comments that people have. So please get in touch. If, if you, if this is a topic that interests you or that you have an opinion on, and otherwise, I guess my only final comment is I look forward to seeing everyone at FOSS4G UK, which is on the 17th next week.

Steven 34:06 Indeed it is. And probably the week after we can maybe do a little recap and have a talk about some of the speakers that we most enjoyed at FOSS4G UK. That will be great. Fun.

Ed 34:18 Alright. We will do it until then

Steven 34:21 Until then take care. Bye bye.

Ed 34:25 Thanks everyone for joining us today and listening to the GMO podcast, hopefully you've enjoyed the discussion. Please don't hesitate if you have any feedback for us or any suggestions for topics that we should cover in the future, you can get the show notes over on the website, which is at -inaudible- dot com while you're there. If you're not yet on the mailing list, please do get on the mailing list where we once a month send out an email announcing future events, summarizing past events, and just generally sharing events that you may find of interest. You can also of course, follow us on Twitter where our handle is geomob. You can follow Steven at @StevenFeldman. You can follow me @Freyfogle you can check out at mappery dot org. And of course, if you need any geocoding, please check out my service, which is open cage data.com. We look forward to you joining us again at a future episode or end of course, seeing you at a future geomob event. Hope to see you there soon. Bye.