Ed talks with Alex Wrottesley, Head of Geovation. Geovation is a phenomenal resource for the UK geo community. Many thanks to Alex and his team for frequently hosting Geomob in London over the last few years at thier excellent facility in Clerkenwell. I recommend to anyone working in geo in the UK that they should join, it is a great community and place to work. Any start-ups in the locaiton or real estate space should strongly consider joining the Geovation accelerator program.
Every week we discuss themes from the geo industry, interview Geomob speakers, and provide regular updates about our own projects.
Ed 00:01 Welcome to the geomob podcast where we discuss geoinnovation in any and all forms get for fun or profits. Hi everyone. Welcome back for another episode of the geomob podcast. Today it is my good fortune to be speaking with Alex Wrottesley who has the fantastic title of head of Geovation. Alex, welcome to the show. What is Geovation?
Alex 00:27 Hi ed. Thanks for having me on. Geovation is a startup accelerator and incubator and community space for geospatial professionals in London. We been going in this current format for about five years running a an innovation space and our goal is to help location data startups to launch and grow. It's a, it's an initiative that was led by Britain's national mapping agency Ordnance Survey and more recently we've had sponsorship and support from other government and private organizations including the Land Registry, Registers of Scotland in Edinburgh, people at IBM, and dstl (The Defence Science and Technology Laboratory) So really broad coalition of people supporting the initiative.
Ed 01:07 Yeah. One, one of the events that you generously host at your facility in London is geo ma. Plan. And so it's great to have you on and also publicly say thank you for having us so many times. It's just excellent. And actually for, well actually our next event will be in mid March, March 18th so we really appreciate it. Let's go into some details then. Tell us a bit about what exactly what you guys do. How does the accelerator work?
Alex 01:34 Yeah, so, so basically what we're looking for is companies that can, that are doing interesting stuff with location data. So it's the headline principles behind setting a top was other, the national mapping agency I want to survey, it needs to understand what the emerging marketplace for location data -inaudible- services is both to inform our own existing products, but also where we go in the future. The role of a national marketing agencies changing and yeah, we know the, the location services market is exploding at the moment and being involved in different industries and different sort of sets of specialisms that weren't traditionally called geospatial, particularly in terms of the software market. So for us, a chance to collaborate openly with new businesses to help them achieve that success. But learning at the same time. It's been a really, really good way of doing things. In practical terms, that means keeping small companies, brand new companies, the resources, support and the things they need to grow.
Ed 02:30 So what size are these companies? It's kind of at the idea stage or they already have some customers or w what's your kind of sweet spot?
Alex 02:37 So the sweet spot for applications, as I said, we do an application call, um, twice a year. Um, and we are absolutely looking for really early stage businesses. So we've found that the place we can add the most value it's taking people, it's probably, uh, I always call should say idea stage or idea stage suggest you haven't done any work yet. We do expect people to have something to take that idea and to test that in some way, shape or form. So it's not good enough to apply. Saying, I've got a great idea. Can I have some money in time, please. But I've had a great idea. I've spoken to some customers, I've talked to some friends. I spent the last few, you know, months, evenings or weekends. Thinking about it. I've written up some notes. I might made a landing page, you know, I've done some stuff to kind of tease out on my own, you know, as much as I can about where this goes and how it might work.
Alex 03:26 You might've made a prototype or an issue demo or something. You might have done some couple of wire frames, but we wouldn't necessarily expect it to have going into a full product. Most companies we take home pre-revenue and pre-investment, so we take them from that point. And then we have what's a little bit more of a venture studio model than a traditional accelerator and that we have a a multidisciplinary team. We have 15 spa computing, seven software engineers. So we really get in helping people design early projects position and create some testable prototypes that can take customers. So I that first purchase from the great idea and that validation phase through to the first customer. The first revenue, I'm essentially the first investment round.
Ed 04:07 And how long are they then with you? What w how long does the program run? You say two a year. So is it kind of six months batches or,
Alex 04:14 yeah, so we take, we take them on a six month intake, but then you get to years, years of direct support from us, so six months we say like intensive support where you'll, that cohort is the priority for our team, which that's what we do, all the workshop stuff. So we do everything from the really boring nuts and bolts of company formation, company director, share accounting, finance, legal stuff. But we also do, it'd be a really, really, really good stuff, which is quite unique around found the development and I'm an entrepreneur, my background is entrepreneurial and the founder journey I think is something that lots of accelerators necessarily provide as much support as they could. So we do what a leadership development sensation training. I think we uniquely do coaching practice. So each, each boundary gets at least six hours of coaching practice through the first six months to help them. Yup. Understand what this journey means of being a company founder. Did you start doing it for the first time or coming in from a corporate environment? It's a very, very different world to be in and it would cause different kinds of stresses on you for personal and professional point.
Ed 05:14 Yeah. A lot of people really struggle with that transition I've found either either they're very young and they've, they don't really have a working background so, so it's probably very useful or absolutely people who come from a big company, it's a big transition to move all of a sudden too. As startup where you have to do everything, you would have to create the momentum.
Alex 05:33 Yeah, a hundred percent a hundred percent so that first six months we give them a really kind of a lot of support, a lot of real focus. We then do increase showcase. We don't call it demo day per se because it's not necessarily an investment call, but sometimes they're raising something they're not, and then we should, we should. We take a snapshot of where they got to their first six months and then we give them six months. We sort of go to market support where we help them engage with those first customers, help them potentially can do that first investment round. We do some business development stuff with them, we might introduce them to core press that we think might be interested or government departments that might benefit from our services. So they get so six months of a mobile Loba and kind of market support and that kind of overlaps with the next couple coming in. There's always kind of a group of companies in the intensive phase and it could be companies in the coats and we found that works quite well for us getting the maximum out of the team resources we have available to us.
Ed 06:24 And you're also giving them some funding that some actual money. Is it the same for every company or is there a fixed amount or how does that work?
Alex 06:31 Yeah, so each company that gets on the program and say we taken total now 20 a year 12 in London and eight in Edinburgh and I get up to 20,000 pounds of grant funding. We can keep grant funding is doled out in, in a sort of three month chunk. So it's not all up front in cash. The idea behind the spas that we would and the real motivation for giving it was to ensure equity of access as a government backed initiative. Entrepreneurship can often be the preserve of those that -inaudible- obviously easy for lots of people to take six months out and stuff. The business, I haven't had the resources or their image of their career, they've got all witches or bills to pay and kids raise lots of great ideas, go to the world conscious, find that time focus. So the grant is literally a if subsidiary like for a period of time and lets people focus on their idea at least in a three to six months, which gives them that, that window to work out whether it's really worth pursuing or not.
Alex 07:22 So we do that. We don't take equity by the fault on the program. Our view is that we and provide a level of support that we do for the program with no equity take what we do, have a model as if some one and particularly nontechnical founders, if they get to appointment, they want to build something, I mean need to actually engage a resource. We found this gap where if you didn't have a technical CTO who could do it themselves, small company being really heavily diluted going to bring on a technical cofounder or going out to a contractor and saying, we build this. For me it was a very key, the cash intensive or equity and so what we found was a model. Those companies, we if, if we believe in that business and they've gone through the value proposition exercise with us and we feel really confident they were onto something, we will -inaudible- our developer team to that business for a period of time in exchange for some share options.
Alex 08:14 So we'll do that. Probably I'd say typically about 20% of the companies that come through us, we will do that with. So it's, it's the exception rather than the rule. It has worked very well for some of the companies you've brought with because it provides that relatively low, low cost and low risk way for them to get to that first customer prototype. Often that work with right away is time. It literally is a, what do you need to get done right now to get some cash in the bank to demonstrate possible apply the thing. It's not designed to be all long term technology platform, but you know, if we can do, you know, 400 hours of their work, you know, to kind of get that first thing off that, you know, three months of work, four months of work to try and get something in the market. It can be really transformative for some of the businesses we work with.
Ed 08:55 I can imagine, and
Alex 08:56 I know we've had the pleasure of having many of your startups present at geomob and I knew they all speak very highly of the program. So you've been doing it now for five years. How many people are typically applying in each cohort? What does that, what are the chances of getting in? Okay, so it's, we are looking in London for safe a six and it's gotten for four each time. It really varies leads. It's between 102 hundred are applying for six places. So it's pretty competitive. Wow. I'm keeping the oversee already in the niche -inaudible- yeah, but, but I would encourage people to say that actually like any um, open application process that there's a distribution curve of, of quality of focus call. Yeah. People who've read, read the exam questions, there's a happen. So I think the real thing I was encouraged to do is to not get hung up on, on the boards.
Alex 09:43 I think there's two things we'd say. First of all, we've got so many clear things we're looking for shells in a second because just being in the right stage, the right focus with the right sort of key things had automatically put you in a better place for that process. The other thing is one of timing, right? We have had I think at least three, four businesses that have applied multiple times and got through on their second or third attempt because they're at a better place. They will reach that point where we felt more comfortable get that value. So no, getting on the program is often no reflection of your business. It's more of -inaudible- fits with us. So and where we are right now. The other thing is we don't currently, we don't operate like a venture studio or I really don't. Okay. When we've had a big debate internally as to people that we currently know model, we believe that we hit two to add value and sends it into the maximum impact we can make.
Alex 10:32 So if someone comes to us and they've already, they might be really early stage, but they've got fantastic access to capital that could have really good kind of corporate experience that we look at them and go, they've got these, this team they going to go, they're going to do anyway. You know, whether or not we support them, they're going to be fine. And we've seen this a number of times. We'll often not invite them into the program, not defensive great companies because we clap on Travis and we'd rather allocate these limited resources. Two, the ones that would really struggle or would need my help to get to that point because it's trying to realize this, this unrealized benefits rather than the ones that we'll have will happen regardless. It's been interesting obviously, because if we did go for more, I said the ones that are more guaranteed wins probably, you know, -inaudible- stats a bit.
Alex 11:14 But from our point of view, that's kind of, you know, that question of what's the maximum impact we can make with our resources and our limited resource. It's always what we look for. So in terms of actually that the key criteria, we will say this, there's three things we look for. Clarity of, of business plan. Do they know we are selling to what the building of why they want to build them? Do you understand what customer's problem is? And they have a real focus on that. Are they credible? Are these, are these people who we believe can deliver this plan? Um, or do they know how to find people who can look to anyone to be an expert, but we'd want them to say, I'm not an with in machine learning, but I know there's purpose. You know, doctoral students have a new CFO is going to work with me full time to do it.
Alex 11:55 Great. The third thing is the most important is coachability. Do you want the support of a diverse and talented team? Does it support one of this journey? Are you willing to, you know, embrace the process? If they kind of, I see the curiosity. Do you want to understand what's possible? If you don't, that's fine, but it's probably not the right place for you to be. I mean, I've known some extremely bull-headed founders who were very successful. We listened to nobody and they've done really well for themselves. They know precisely where they're going and what they're doing and how they're going to get back and I say, good luck to you. You may well succeed. Crack on. As an accelerator environment, we've started about looking for a collaborative process where we can have value and that coachability, that willingness to kind of work together is critical.
Ed 12:41 I think that's one thing many entrepreneurs overlook is that for the investor in your case or the the ex owner, it's all about also finding the people who are a good match to you, not just the people that are good in general, but of those three categories in general, what are the biggest mistakes that you see or areas that lead you to reject applications? What is the one that people are kind of missing? Lacking the most?
Alex 13:04 That's a good one. The one that always surprises me, and it shouldn't because I've made this mistake myself in the past, and the reason I think I quite enjoyed doing this is that I have the know both sides of the table here. I've run businesses as well and I've run businesses badly. Frankly, the cost of some of the mistakes, not talking to customers, I mean the, the complete obsession with product above actually talking to the customers they want to sell to. Oh, it happens. Remarkably. People come and say, I'm building this amazing thing. It's the best thing about ever. You know, it does this fantastic thing. Brilliant. Have you spoken to them to buy it, then it was still working on it. When it's ready, we'll take it out to them and they'll buy it each day. Like then ultimately it's about if you are wanting for the company, so it's a company, it's about business, it's about a value exchange between you and other people. And you say quantify, people get get lost in that technology or that Porter and we say just talk to customers half as customers. -inaudible- that's gonna make a massive difference where you go,
Ed 14:01 this leads to a good point ox because you know a lot of people I know think maybe people who aren't as deeply involved in the tech space, they think it's kind of all about just having the aha moment and coming up with some amazing innovation and then building the better mouse trap. Right? But then you have people on the other side who are say, the idea doesn't matter at all. It just matters. It's all about execution and having a good team of complimentary people who execute well and they will find, find a business. How do you see that and how do you see that also, particularly in the geo prop tech space?
Alex 14:32 Certainly for startups point of view, it's, I mean there are absolutely now if you're looking at sort of the heavy duty Neville's office or corporate innovation -inaudible- the industries for the zone on some things like defense or pharmaceuticals, that's kind of long, long and D cycles to build things that are except for exceptionally, yeah, unique and innovative for technical reasons in the digital marketplace. I started off doing entrepreneurial activities in 1928 around then and I remember the first.com time around and -inaudible-. Yeah, I mean it was a very different environment. You know that you could be the first person to come up with eBay. The barriers to entry to launching new things were really high and that creates this sort of a moat around opportunity. I try to introduce about any business today is, is next to nothing. Yeah. I'm always astonished at how quickly and we've done some experiments.
Alex 15:23 Personally, I'm sort of tried to work out when we can. Could I put something up in a weekend? That would look like a mobile business and you can, you can do a landing page, you can do a MailChimp pull up, you can get at for a product prototype built in sketch. If you want to do something more technical you could, there is huge cloud based infrastructure now that lets you spin up a service on scalable infrastructure. If it starts to pick up traction and there's no sunk costs up front. So the barrier to entry is next to zero. So, and that's an important moment. It is about execution. It's ultimately about, you know, can you deliver a service that people want to buy? And I think there are the exceptions there. All the people who come up with something and that usually these, they've come out to something in the academic sector or the deep, the deep tech area, which is the Holy grail for lots of ECS these days.
Alex 16:11 They all want to be deep tech because deep tech sounds really exciting. It's very rare. It's very rarely tea baths, anybody. If you've got something amazing. I've seen some brilliant technologies go nowhere because the founding team just believed they didn't need to sell them. They would just sell themselves and I've never seen a product sell itself. Really? Yeah. That's a common mistake technical people fall into, you know. Anyways, let's get into some specific, I know you love all your children equally, but highlight a few startups that have gone through the program that stand out for you that are doing particularly well. Yeah, sure. And they, they really brought, the nice thing about location data and prop tech is it gives us that kind of almost horizontal market. So you see people in lots of different verticals in terms of sort of on a purely success level, it's a company called land tech has been doing really well in terms of the land and property space.
Alex 16:59 They're growing really fast. They just raised a big round, didn't they? Yeah, they just did around the J with JLL spark, which is a -inaudible- sales investment group and actually the same week last week, one other one about our alumni company called a shipper max. I think Jen is speaking at the next year more has has just raised a $7 million round from mosaic and crane ventures and amazing business ship mass. And what's interesting about both those founders is, and I was talking alphabet in a second, but it's relentless focus on that customer experience. So I remember when we first had Jenna Fabion incident -inaudible- I'll be honest, they didn't need a huge amount of the, they're quite, they were very focused, quite experienced in their own careers. But working with the, the saw their approach, it was very early prototypes. They'd stick them in front of a customer. I remember irritation general on the phone with a customer.
Alex 17:52 I'm just asking the questions one, could you do that if, Oh, why did you push that button? What's that? He went on the software today while we were on the software today. And just curious about the things they want to do in their work and how that product might support them in doing so. Actually, I was reading a blog cause I wasn't aware until this week for those blog posts, both on the new investors talking about how they've shifted their business model around too, the automation of supply chain and global shipping industry. They work with them. It's a classic case of following the market and the opportunity and understanding where that the fable, you know, product market fits is between the things you're building and you only get that by listening to customers. Um, similarly with Johnny and Andrew and Landon site, you know, they had this site finding service initially know use our software to find pops to build on really.
Alex 18:38 So basically what they realized was actually a big challenge around that for property developers managing the pipeline opportunities, manage the conversations, that data, it's a big part of their function now going to move into almost like a Trello. So if it's like a work board for -inaudible- property development for a process and they then go into it, another company but able to prop tech science called third fourth they are looking at the conveyancing process and looking at how money transfers happen to pop to market. And again, the founders that are really polished, really successful young people like Jacqueline Malian and I, when I first met them I thought they were going to be quite quite determined to that they had the right answer. I hate, but I want to go, we know what we're doing. And I remember only coming and saying, I've just been up to Scotland, I've been to, I think it was full cup to the mortgage lending center of -inaudible-.
Alex 19:28 And he'd gotten, and as an entrepreneur, you know, it got on a train, he'd gone and sat down and he'd gone out to this market center where they had several thousand people working in a call sense that there was, I was into facts today from events and sisters and they were getting tens of thousands of phone calls chasing the faxes that had been said. And only when it's been a full day that with the people doing the work understand the pain points of that process and that fed into that product. They all have this rake, you know what customers need to make their life better and it does sound reasonable well so you can do that and you really listen to your customers and really pursue services or products that improve that, their work, their patterns that solve problems for them. They're not buying a product -inaudible- pushing the thing you think is brilliant at them.
Alex 20:12 Rarely works. So those guys and girls are ones that we're really, really proud of. There's also lots that have not been quite sensitive, financially successful. I haven't raised big rounds but really, really high impact and really impressive. I have to give a shout out to Sue patterns even to go join the team. Um, beautiful picture of uh, of work and creating us and on the app store if you haven't got it go jointly, etc. It's a walking app that lets you explore really nice sort of. Okay. Very cool. She presented at geomob I think about 18 months ago or so. Yeah. And it's just beautifully designed. It's a lovely service. Nicole for good, healthy number of growing active users and I love his social mission. That's to get people feeling better about themselves. That will like improving their mental health throughout the activity, which is really aligned with our core ordinance survey.
Alex 21:01 You'll get outside campaign ROS. The same thing is about aligning people to experience the outdoors and get out two to improve the mental health necklace for balance. And probably the last one -inaudible- we've had 110 businesses through, so I can't talk about them all but one of our very first cohort come people the land that, and if you've met Tim hall to say they will on a very first group and they, Tim's of farming family and sorry, and he was quiet, depressed, but I think it was his grandfather's side. He dealt with in the farming business. There's no future in it. It's really hard to manage a principal problem these days. And he was like, plus the pressing. I love, I love my the lands we have, I love this location. What can we do with it? And you realize that there was, there was a real tools that met him as a small rounder in farmer manage the multitude of different things you can do with your land, whether that's environmental stewardship schemes, whether it's just how you wanted, reuse your land, whether it's competing your forms for the subsidy programs and things which are hugely complex and time consuming.
Alex 22:01 I'm still paper based in many ways. So he's had a colony, but possibly he came on to a program and we supported for building his very first prototype, which would let you effectively creating digital picture of your man, your land registry titles. You can assemble a border, you can start add features to it and draw it and then create almost like a, the Google docs for your farm where you can share plans and ideas with other parts for value chain department and South and foundation property, property consultants and the government. And it's a really, really important part of our sort of agricultural landscape that's has been hugely neglected. And as we move out the European union, whatever your political views are on that -inaudible- it's going to change things a lot for our rural economy, particularly where we do have movers move away from the common agriculture policy and what Tim has built is an extraordinary toolkit for farmers to interact with the data about their farms and with the stakeholders and then it takes time.
Alex 22:57 I mean he's full four and a half years in now. He's just signed up some really big customers in. I think he's got strong and powerful on board on a big sort of land agents nationally. They're using his software, getting value out of it, but it takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. A great founders have that persistence. I think before it was kind of what was taken by the founder looking at starting Saskia businesses. Timing is everything. Yeah, patience is really key. The idea of, you know, starting a company and then exiting in three years on a, you know, massive exit -inaudible-. It does happen to somebody. Really, really exceptional. Most startups take is take a decade of your life to kind of get to a point of sustainability and growth. And you might still miss away because you know, my mind is such a virtual world business in 2007 I still think the vision we had was really cool and probably a valid strategic vision, but it's still now where you know, 15 year old is on and you know, you just have to decide whether you want to wait it out or whether you want to some point say, I think I'm just in the wrong time zone for this in history.
Alex 24:03 You know, I might have to press pause and try something else to see where that vision comes to, comes in a, in another five or 10 years time. Um, but that's that that requires a lot of sort of maturity and patience.
Ed 24:14 I can definitely confirm what you're saying that it takes time. As someone who had a real estate startup for a real estate search startup for 10 years, it's a long journey and founders really do, you need to have endurance. So great examples, Alex, of the types of companies you've been. Yeah.
Alex 24:31 Yeah. When is the next patch? When should people apply? So I think unfortunately this podcast would probably go out just after we closed our January cold January, February. So I think the current is closing on 20 Oh February 24th integrated. You might be at midnight, but we'll be doing another quarter this summer. So look out for it now on the -inaudible- dot UK website, a big button that says apply now, pops up twice a year in January, February and in July, usually alleged by our logos and we usually give a six week application periods, give you plenty of time to pay occupations in. Okay. The other thing I'd say is -inaudible- if you are in London or even if you're not and you want to have access to the community, stop being a good active Slack channel and we have lots of resources, we can support you to remotely go onto -inaudible- dot UK membership, sign up to free community member.
Alex 25:17 It's a great way to get connected to what we do and be in the loop if you are in in the UK and you want, so that's um, or work with the community, people sign up as a staff member free. You can use the pillar per space, you can drink the coffee actually got network now, but other locations around the UK as well in Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Edinburgh where we can arrange on access if you all need to help us. And those are patients as well. So it's a really amazing resource. Okay. Right. By engaging with the community, you get to know what we're looking for. We can support you in that program when it's ready to go.
Ed 25:48 Yeah, I agree completely. As someone who has been able to take advantage of your generosity in London many times, it's a great place to work and a great community and everyone should check it out and of course the next time I can check it out, is that a, at the next geomob, which will be on March 18th
Alex 26:05 absolutely. That read that. So should be looking forward to seeing them.
Ed 26:08 One final question, Alex. Any favorite geomob talks or moments that stand out for you?
Alex 26:15 Yes, I was thinking about that when you asked me. You asked me that question before before we recorded it. That was it. I was interested to keep out the ones that enjoy it. That'd be lots, lots of really, I'm from the super technical ones and some really nice personal product. But actually I realized the offbeat once you get here and the things that are sort of known, I see a lot of technology, I see a lot of really great entrepreneurs, but I love about GMOs sometimes is you get the passionate enthusiasts who have done something really cool. And one that stuck out to me was, I can't remember the chap's but it was about in two or three years ago, who did an amazing talk about how he taken the open day, I think it was O S names or the surveys names open dataset. And he's analyzed all the prefixes and suffixes of places and a map them and it's showing you how, and then historically you could see where different parts of the country have a reflecting like past migrations, invasions, you know, trade routes.
Alex 27:09 And it was just an amazing example of how data can tell stories and can provide, you know, you look at that list of that list of names, it would be nothing to you, but you use the geospatial data. You analyze it, you map it and you suddenly look at what that says and the stories become clear as day. You know, that's where the Vikings came in here and gosh, that river down stream is there with people there as well. They obviously settled and married and you can see that the map becomes, you know, a really visual representation of, of people these, these Paul's political economic activities. I think that was just fascinating for me. That goes to the heart of why geography is, is it's a kind of a passion. I mean I'm not so geographer by their education, but the power of the location, data and geography to tell stories with data and to make data real audiences is why it's so powerful.
Alex 28:00 I mean that sort of ending on a long something too, too serious. But that's why the climate stuff is so important. Why geographers have such a key role to play in the climate challenge is the core skillset of a geographer and someone's insurance better Bates is helping people make sense of complex data and ways that they can understand whether you're doing business or offer climate analysis. And you know, it's a, it's something that I think we just celebrate as this awful kind of outdated view of geographers is kind of nerdy people in their corduroy jackets. And I think if we can make kids today going to school, look at the power of GSP formalities and geo data to to really change the world, it might be a, for me to try and support them brace.
Ed 28:42 That's a, that's a very good insight arcs. And um, I, I agree. Yeah, that that presentation was one of many that we've had that really show it, make the history come to life and show how the, you know, the past has big influences even today. So. Well, on that note, I think that was an excellent summary and I look forward to seeing you at the next few. I'm up in, uh, on the 18th of March and, and I encourage anyone let any of our listeners out there who are in the UK and who are thinking of starting a geo startup to get involved in the geospatial community and if it makes sense to apply, it's a wonderful resource that you guys have created. Congratulations.
Alex 29:19 Oh, thanks. Thanks. Thanks and great talking today and look forward to seeing you soon.
Ed 29:22 See you soon. Bye. Thanks everyone for joining us today and listening to the geomob podcast. Hopefully you've enjoyed the discussion. Please don't hesitate if you have any feedback for us or any suggestions for topics that we should cover in the future. You can get the show notes over on the website, which [email protected] while you're there, if you're not yet on the mailing list, please do get on the mailing list where we once a month send out an email announcing future events, summarizing past events and just generally sharing, uh, events that you may find of interest. You can also of course follow us on Twitter where our handle is geomob. You can follow Steven at Steven Veltman. You can follow me @freyfogle you can check out Mappery at mappery dot org and of course if you need any geocoding, please check out my service, which is open cage data.com. We look forward to you joining us skin that if you try episode Oh, and of course seeing you at a future Geomob event. Hope to see you there soon. Bye.